atheist debate 2

i am exhausted after my 2+ hr debate with the atheist and i have to wake up at the crack of dawn tomorrow because of our trip (our being me, irreligious jews, and some asians) to jerusalem  tomorrow (should be interesting), but i just want to write a few things.

1.  as a mashal to an idea i was discussing i told him about the machlokes in gemara bari vishema which is adif (if i claim definitively you owe me 100$ and you say you dont know who wins - the better claim or the person who has the money in his hand).  i was shocked when he started arguing that the side bari adif is irrational and reflects an irrational religious outlook - i dont think that machlokes has anything to do with a religious outlook in the sense he meant - i think any rational thinking person can accept that there are two sides to this issue.  i thought that was just sheer refusal to accept anything the torah says.

2.  towards the conclusion of our discussion he remarked that he still doesn't believe in g-d,  and if g-d exists he would like to ask him what Bertrand russel wanted to ask him, "If You exist, why do you conceal yourself so well." (he said russel said that, i have no idea if its true)  How ironic, I said, that chazal preceded him by saying this was the most perplexing question about G-d and one that we have no good answer to.  Tzaddik vira lo is this question, and moshe rabbeinu was denied the answer to this question.

3. we discussed if i believe he is going to hell.  i said i dont judge - the rambam writes in hilchos teshuva that only g-d can truly judge people because he is yodeo machshavos libo shel adam.  but i said, i believe anyone who is unfortunate enough to not believe in sinaitic revelation is a pale shadow of what they could be if they believed.  he claimed that that is a condescending attitude.  i said, irrelevant - it is a truthful attitude.  if you accept sinaitic revelation, it follows that a person cannot achieve their potential without it.  it is not condescending, its just the cold and harsh truth.  im sorry that not everything i believe is cute and rosy.  but we can still be friends.

4.  i said that i dont know why g-d created the world. he said, to have people bow and worship him for all eternity.  i said, saying that reflects how everything can be twisted to suit your perspective.  if you want to make g-d sound nasty, its all too easy.  but its just as easy to say things in a nice way and be pleasant.  i dont know why g-d created the world (we can discuss the problems with mesillas yesharim's attempted answer some other time - see halachic man where he rejects ramchals approach in half a line.  i dont really like ramchal anyway.)   but i know that he created the world, and hence wants it to be beautiful and good - and the whole purpose of the torah was for that.  as the rambam writes in hilchos zemanim, the torah was given to create shalom - to make the world a harmonious and peaceful place to live.  halachic man expands very much in line with this theme.

thanks to everyone who responded.  your comments were insightful and i hope i incorporated them into my thought process.  i reiterate that i didnt initiate these debates - apparently this guy likes debating more than i do (albeit in a very different way.  he has better decibel level control.)